Proposed changes to photography military photo rules

[noryport]

Hi EGCC...If you check the thread out ,there is a post dated 2004,sent after the guidelines had been laid down .This prompted me to ask the question..
It would be nice to hear your point of view on this ,in your reply.I never asked the question on a churlish whim,would you have been compelled to the ask the same
question had you spotted the Luton 2004 post?...Look forward to your response...

[Mike]

We've come to a decision and threads posted in the Nostalgia section should be over 5 years old, threads posted in the Current section should be under 5 years old.

Is everyone happy with that?

[noryport]

That's fine and clear now Your deliberation on the decision appreciated ..JB

[andygolfer]

We are hoping to come up with a ruling shortly but unfortunately the topic drifted off into the discussion on 'nostalgia' and what was deemed reasonable - it needn't have done so because we didnt propose to either amalgamate the nostalgia forum with any others or change it's rules but the military issue got lost so if you wish to comment - and we would like you to as the more feedback we get the more ideas of the feeling we will get to help our decision, please put down your thoughts by err, lets say Thursday 9pm. As a caviat to that if there have been posts in the 6 hours previous to that leading to an ongoing discussion we will run it on for a further 24 hours to ensure the discussion can conclude. I hope you feel that is a demoratic way of doing things.

As a reminder, this was the original proposal:
Secondly we have noticed that from time to time members post an occasional military photo in with their civil aircraft photos. At present this contravenes our rules however we feel that there are times when the inclusion of a military photo compliments the post and therefore we are proposing the following wording : 'posts should be primarily civil aircraft but a small proportion of military aircraft photos is acceptable as long as it is appropriate to the post' we do not intend to specify a percentage but hope that if implemented then members will use common sense. We also wish to point out that most 'warbirds' have civilian registrations and as such are acceptable at present, particularly in the airshows section

I will also try to amend the topic title to reflect the current discussion that we are aiming for

[EGVP]

Wow Andy, that post makes UKAR's approach to moderation appear "softly softly"!

At the end of the day, this is a discussion forum, and discussions drift off in to other topics. People are more than capable of following discussions if they go off on a tangent, or ignoring those posts entirely. I hardly think " it needn't have done so because we didnt propose to either amalgamate the nostalgia forum with any others or change it's rules" was required!

Ahh well, if that's the attitude you want to take...

[andygolfer]

sorry if it offended, it wasnt meant to but I did hope to explain that the nostalgia forum wasn't changing so wasn't perceived until it was raised. At that point the mods discussed it a bit and Mike posted our thoughts on 28-5 (4? posts back). I think that certainly distracted people from the original discussion and it died a death.

We still havent bottomed this one out and we only had 5 posts containing feedback (3 generally 'for' and 2 'against', i put generally before the 'fors' as they commented on the degree of content which was valid), and pleased to say you were one of those that did respond. Our opinion was that 5 responses with a 60/40 split wasn't really enough to base a decision on so I offered to post a 'chivvy up' to try to get some more feedback, I used bold writing where I reposted the original text to highlight it and bring it to people's attention a bit more, I hope it wasn't perceived as e-shouting (like capitals are) but to give it with the aim that hopefully people will read it and respond with ideas.

We felt it was time to set a 'make a decision date' hence the deadline and caviat otherwise it will drift and drift and not get resolved so (to everyone) lets have some more feedback please - it's a discussion forum so please discuss.

One point I will make about the nostalgia bit that took it off topic, and I dont think this is controversial - had the question been posted in a new topic with an appropriate title it would possible have received more attention and feedback in itself, the title 'nostalgia' is a bit 'wooly ' in my opinion. to everyone if a topic like this raises a question you wish to ask which is not directly related then please start a new topic with an approprite title and you may well find like minded people joining in on something they might have missed if it were added in an existing forum, I hope that is a worthwhile suggestion, it is not meant to offend. Having said that I probably should have started this whole topic off as two separate topics to keep the discussions separate

hope that clears the air a bit and finally - lets have more feedback re military photos please.

[Mike]

Wow Andy, that post makes UKAR's approach to moderation appear "softly softly"!

At the end of the day, this is a discussion forum, and discussions drift off in to other topics. People are more than capable of following discussions if they go off on a tangent, or ignoring those posts entirely. I hardly think " it needn't have done so because we didnt propose to either amalgamate the nostalgia forum with any others or change it's rules" was required!

Ahh well, if that's the attitude you want to take...

I don't see your point in this statement, Chris.

We are looking for member's views and suggestions to help make CA more user-friendly, Andy certainly doesn't have any sort of "attitude" and is only trying to get the momentum of this thread going again so that we can all come to a conclusion regarding this matter.

[Terry]

Hi
I am back again........
Some opinions first........
If you wanted to know how to make the site more user friendly, then that was what you should have asked.
You are asking should you allow people to post pics of military aircraft, doesn't matter how you word it, that is what you have asked... WHY ? Do you have a discussion on Fighter Control asking about 'civil' pictures ? I bet you don't.
You post articles about military stuff from your Aero Resource site ? They are by a LARGE margin military subjects, you justify it by saying it's your 'sister' site. It doesn't matter, it is NOT CIVIL, check out this site's name !
I see lots about this site that tells me that your heart is not really in it. You have posters admitting they came over from F.C.,obviously 'encouraged' , you have items like Noryports (I know you don't want to control what the posters put)... 'Civvy stuff at Duxford' that title defines his attitude.(Considering almost certainly the vast majority of aircraft in the flying display were CIVIL registered 'warbirds' ) we got meagre pickings, a few gliders & tugs !
Military bases in the U.K. (civil postings), do you have a similar grouping in F.C., I bet you don't.
The whole thing stinks of F.C.'s 'poor relation', which leads me to ask why did you bother if you are not going to stick by the rules YOU made yourself. Posters (as I do) will see it as 1 rule for you, a different one for me , not good. You have either lost your way, or you are dis-honest, You need to put it right in either case.
If in answer to....' Is the same question being asked on F.C. ? (but civil pics) is no, you know what you need to do.
Photo competitions, your blurb says the pics don't have to be perfect, interesting subjects are viable too. Bullshit you always go for the 'technically best' pic, so those of us who don't do 'perfect pictures' don't win, get dis-illusioned & stop trying/entering. Makes it just another 'AIRLINERS' where only the chosen few get pics on.
Rant over
Terry

[KyleG]

I think the military photo debate has been taken the wrong way by some members.

From what I can see, it won't bring in threads full of military aircraft, but just allows you if you wish to post the odd mil photo, for instance when I go to Newquay I'll take loads of civvy pictures but if a C-130 happens to come in as well I'll also take pictures of that. These new rules would mean I could post all of them including the C-130 on this site, which in my view provides a more solid record of the day. It's not about making this a forum for both mil and civil, the main focus will always be on civilian aircraft, it just means we won't be breaking the rules if we slip a photo of a military aircraft in with a thread with mainly civil movements.

[andygolfer]

Thanks for the feedback Terry even if I dont agree with all of it. as you say some is just opinion but i've happily read through it all twice before responding, so - let's have a go and a response to the main points without moving too far off the topic subject:

If you wanted to know how to make the site more user friendly, then that was what you should have asked.
That wasn't the subject under question, it was more about trying to encourage more postings by offering a bit of flexibility (which I suppose in a way is trying to be user friendly).
I (and although I am not speaking for the other mods, but I'm sure they would be welcome to ideas) am more that happy to start a topic on becoming more user friendly if you would like me to do so, I've not been a mod long (I was a mod in to 60's but not the sort we are talking about) but during my working life (I retired last year) we always looked for continuous improvement with project reviews and client feedback. some of the workshops were a bit boring (yawn) but still beneficial so if you would like such a topic please ask.

You are asking should you allow people to post pics of military aircraft, doesn't matter how you word it, that is what you have asked... WHY ?
Okay, I'll try to explain the thoughts behind it. Say I go to Heathrow for a day , see 400+ civilian airliners and take photographs of a lot of them and one military aircraft arrives which I also photograph. When I post a selection of my photos of from the day I like to give a good cross section of the visitors especially the more unusual ones to give an idea of what the day was like and to give others an idea of what a typical day at Heathrow is like (maybe Heathrow wasn't the best place to choose as most are familiar with it, but please bear with me) and if a single military aircraft has turned up then I feel justified in including it to give an overall flavour of the day, seems silly not to. One example I can offer is Stanasted in 2011 with the G8 or G20 summit (cant remember which) and the world leaders arrived at STN. All but about 2 (incl Air Force 1) were civil so it would have been odd to exclude them if anyone had put in a post covering the day.
It does require people to be sensible about it and I would suggest only include it where where a military photo adds to the overall set of images. I would personally think that if I had more than 2 or they made up more that 10% of the total I would then consider posting the military ones on FC. Re airshow pics, warbirds have always been allowed here as they are all civil registered (sometimes you'll have to look very hard to find the reg) I suppose a day at Shuttleworth is a good example, all civil registered but lots in military markings because they want to show them as they looked in there service time, Iyou would never give a flavour of the day without including them though

I see lots about this site that tells me that your heart is not really in it.
I can assure you it is, when I agreed to be a mod I said i would only do it if I felt I could give sufficient time to do it properly. The military theme is one idea we have been discussing at length to try to make it a bit more user friendly.

you have items like Noryports 'Civvy stuff at Duxford' that title defines his attitude.(Considering almost certainly the vast majority of aircraft in the flying display were CIVIL registered 'warbirds' )
another good example of civil aircraft in military clothing - i'll throw a question because answers may be relevant to this topic- with a photo report on that show do you think it would have compromised the attitude of the forum if some of the warbirds had been included to give more of an overall flavour of the show? I took lots of pics but went straight off to Italy and have been ill since so ahvent posted them ,now I wonder what I should do.

Military bases in the U.K. (civil postings), do you have a similar grouping in F.C., I bet you don't.
I just looked and they have this - look at the airfields with reports and I feel it justifies us having a 'mirror image' forum albeit with a different heading

The whole thing stinks of F.C.'s 'poor relation', which leads me to ask why did you bother if you are not going to stick by the rules YOU made yourself. Posters (as I do) will see it as 1 rule for you, a different one for me , not good. You have either lost your way, or you are dis-honest, You need to put it right in either case.
Hang on , where are there two different set of rules - this topic is all about allowing everyone to post the occasional military photo, not just the mods.

If in answer to....' Is the same question being asked on F.C. ? (but civil pics) is no, you know what you need to do.
I've no idea whether it is or not but sadly I personally don't have time to start a topic on there and then keep in touch with as it develops. When I start a topic I like to keep up to speed with it.

Photo competitions, your blurb says the pics don't have to be perfect, interesting subjects are viable too. Bulls**t you always go for the 'technically best' pic, so those of us who don't do 'perfect pictures' don't win, get dis-illusioned & stop trying/entering. Makes it just another 'AIRLINERS' where only the chosen few get pics on.
I hope you dont mind but I toned down one word with a couple of asterisks, no big deal though. I honestly can't see what this is about. The voting is done by public (well members') poll so everyone can make up their own mind on their 3 favourites and how they make their judgement is up to them. We don't set any guidelines as to what you need to be looking for at all. I suppose people do naturally get drawn towards the better photos but I would be surprised if the technically best always won. It's your vote, use it as you like. BTW don't forget both of this month's polls are open at present.

Rant over
Thanks Terry, I hope the replies made your 'rant' worthwhile. I' was happy to spend a bit of time putting my points of view to you and hope it helped.
(you must a good guy because you're quoting Roger Waters under your post )

So - please keep giving us feedback folks. We do listen, honestly

Andrew

[RS2]

Just my view, but you have asked for opinions, I'm afraid I don't like the combining of all the photography threads.
My own interests (other than military over on FC) were Helicopters and the lighter side of GA. Updates and recent photos on both of these subjects were easy to find when they had their own previous dedicated sections, now that they are all mixed in with the other photos etc it doesn't seems as intuitive or as simple to find the threads that I am interested in.

[Terry]

Hi Andrew,
Have a look at the banner across the top of the page...CIVILIAN AVIATION, there should be no mention of military, there are plenty of dedicated sites for them.
Home to the civil aviation enthusiast, there should be no mention of military here either....
Perhaps you can't see the civil wood for the military trees.
Have fun
Terry

[KyleG]

Hi Andrew,
Have a look at the banner across the top of the page...CIVILIAN AVIATION, there should be no mention of military, there are plenty of dedicated sites for them.
Home to the civil aviation enthusiast, there should be no mention of military here either....
Perhaps you can't see the civil wood for the military trees.
Have fun
Terry

Fine, don't post any mil stuff then. But It'll be a lot easier for me (and I'm sure many others) if I happen to catch an odd mil aircraft at a Civil airfield to post the pic on here along with the rest of the civil aircraft of the day instead of making an entire FC thread for one aircraft.

[andygolfer]

I have to admit that Terry has now got me thinking a bit more (and wavering). This is why:

One line of reasoning behind the proposal was that it might encourage more postings and thereby increase the membership.

Taking Terry's approach ( or nearly all of it ) If I put up 20 pics of a visit to LHR and then a note at the bottom that a military a/c visited (with details), a pic of it is on FC and include the link to it for people to follow, with the FC post I can put a reverse link to the civil pics which might encourage an FC visitor to then link over to here and see what a good site it is and maybe even sign up! That could work for us by increasing membership - food for thought, thanks Terry, I knew your post was worth reading.

[flat cap]

Doesn't FC allow pictures of civilian movements on military bases I.e. The freight flights into Brize, Mildenhall? So, by reason it would be ok to fit in one military picture in an airport thread containing a lot of civil movements. I don't see an issue myself.

[Mike]

Doesn't FC allow pictures of civilian movements on military bases I.e. The freight flights into Brize, Mildenhall? So, by reason it would be ok to fit in one military picture in an airport thread containing a lot of civil movements. I don't see an issue myself.

That's correct, FC allow shots of civilian aircraft that are on military "tasking".

[flat cap]

Perhaps then, large military aircraft based on airliners could be allowed e.g. The UAE A330 recently visiting Ringway? Or am I in danger of making this more pedantic!

[Mike]

Perhaps then, large military aircraft based on airliners could be allowed e.g. The UAE A330 recently visiting Ringway? Or am I in danger of making this more pedantic!

The UAE A330 at MAN would be fine, as long as it was in amongst at least 9 or 10 shots of civilian movements. However, we certainly won't be allowing threads that are full of military airliners and nothing else.

[vortex003]

I have to admit that Terry has now got me thinking a bit more (and wavering). This is why:

One line of reasoning behind the proposal was that it might encourage more postings and thereby increase the membership.

Taking Terry's approach ( or nearly all of it ) If I put up 20 pics of a visit to LHR and then a note at the bottom that a military a/c visited (with details), a pic of it is on FC and include the link to it for people to follow, with the FC post I can put a reverse link to the civil pics which might encourage an FC visitor to then link over to here and see what a good site it is and maybe even sign up! That could work for us by increasing membership - food for thought, thanks Terry, I knew your post was worth reading.

I thought the whole point of allowing the odd military photo was to avoid starting threads on any forum for just one or two pics.If you're at at civil airport and something military visits then it should be ok to include it in your post.
Of course no one wants to see military dedicated threads on here - keep those for FC.

[KyleG]

I have to admit that Terry has now got me thinking a bit more (and wavering). This is why:

One line of reasoning behind the proposal was that it might encourage more postings and thereby increase the membership.

Taking Terry's approach ( or nearly all of it ) If I put up 20 pics of a visit to LHR and then a note at the bottom that a military a/c visited (with details), a pic of it is on FC and include the link to it for people to follow, with the FC post I can put a reverse link to the civil pics which might encourage an FC visitor to then link over to here and see what a good site it is and maybe even sign up! That could work for us by increasing membership - food for thought, thanks Terry, I knew your post was worth reading.

I thought the whole point of allowing the odd military photo was to avoid starting threads on any forum for just one or two pics.If you're at at civil airport and something military visits then it should be ok to include it in your post.
Of course no one wants to see military dedicated threads on here - keep those for FC.

Exactly!!