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POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

We run two monthly photo competitions , the Photo Of The Month (POTM) competition and the Specialist Photo Of The Month (SPOTM) which had a different topic every month.
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BringBackEGDG
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POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by BringBackEGDG » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:28 am

From Andy Golfer:I've split this into a separate topic for discussion on the voting polls as it was in the May SPOTM poll and is about the polls more generally. There have been questions about how we run the polls for POTM & SPOTM from time to time and most recently in the May SPOTM so I have started a new topic on the subject and I will move the relevant posts from that topic into here to start it off.

The main subjects under discussion are the voting system - previously we used to ask people to e-mail their choices and more recently we have moved to the poll system which allows a secret vote and there have been questions as to whether we can monitor to ensure the honesty policy of not voting for oneself can be monitored and secondly who do people not use all 3 votes available?

first of all we dont feel we can change from the voting system as it stands (private poll - don't like the term secret but you know what I mean) and there is no apparent way of monitoring who votes for what so we will ahve to continue to rely on your honesty. I will say at this point there is nothing to suggest that the honesty policy is being abused but the question of monitoring has been raised so we needed to reply to it.

secondly we do realise that several of you dont always use all 3 votes available.
Are you happy to tell us why, and also do you think that 3 votes is too many (or too few even). If so would you like the number of votes to be reduced to either 1 or 2. If we get enough indication that you feel a change is desirable we will run a short poll on it and maybe change things for the june competitions - over to you

AND can we have some feedback please


This was Steve's original post, I had to post this into it as when I merged posts they go in posting time order and then nothing made sense,
Sorry Stve but hope you appreciate that we are spending time discussing it:

Yesterday 06/06/2014 I noticed the vote count was 42 which is quite obviously 14 people having cast 3 votes apiece, Later the same day the vote count goes to 43. I wonder why when there are 25 images to vote for that someone chooses to vote for only 1 image?

The April SPOTM had 18 images entered and yet only 50 votes cast, 4 votes short if only the contestants had voted.

Please don't vote for yourself! There is no way to enforce this, just an honesty policy

Is there really no way that the voting system can be monitored?

Steve

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andygolfer
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:00 am

Steve -thanks for the comment. Nearly every month we find that the total votes are indivisible by 3, even when there were 42 that was probably a case of more than 14 people voing and not using all 3 but coincidentally the total was divisible by 3. I don't know why it happens when there is a large number of entries although I will confess that in November last year there were just 4 entries, one of which was mine and if I used all 3 I was not expressing a preference so I only voted for 2 but I hope you can follow the logic in that one. It may be that some people prefer to express a clear favourite rather than colud their choices with 2 'lesser favoured' choices if that makes sense.

Unfortunately there is no way we can enforce the honesty policy using the polling system and the old e-mail method got far fewer responses either because it took longer or people preferred a 'secret' vote so we just have to continue relying on peoples' integrity I'm afraid.

I will chat about this discussion with the other mods and possibly put it in a separate topic later if that's okay

Andy
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Mike
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by Mike » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:08 am

The only other way to do it would be to limit the votes to 1 per member and then rely on their honesty to not vote for themselves. Why some cannot cast 3 votes is beyond me !
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by PorkScratching » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:41 am

You could enforce the honesty policy by having a look in the poll_votes database table, but you'd need to follow the relationships to the poll_options and users tables to work out who voted for what. Probably too much effort unless you're happy mooching around in databases!

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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:01 am

Mike wrote:The only other way to do it would be to limit the votes to 1 per member and then rely on their honesty to not vote for themselves. Why some cannot cast 3 votes is beyond me !
i some time wonder (for the reasons given above) if 3 is too many votes and maybe reduce it to 2 - shall we run a poll on it?
Andygolfer (or at least I was once), now just plane crazy

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Mike
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by Mike » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:04 am

andygolfer wrote:
Mike wrote:The only other way to do it would be to limit the votes to 1 per member and then rely on their honesty to not vote for themselves. Why some cannot cast 3 votes is beyond me !
i some time wonder (for the reasons given above) if 3 is too many votes and maybe reduce it to 2 - shall we run a poll on it?
Yeah - why not? :thumb:
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andygolfer
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:06 am

PorkScratching wrote:You could enforce the honesty policy by having a look in the poll_votes database table, but you'd need to follow the relationships to the poll_options and users tables to work out who voted for what. Probably too much effort unless you're happy mooching around in databases!
I dont think that honesty policy is being put into question at present and no evidence to suggest it is being abused but just a case of could it be checked as a bit of a deterrent if needed. I think there are other reason why people dont always make the maximum 3 choices

I like databases but not that much!
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andygolfer
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Re: Voting poll for May 2014 SPOTM

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:08 am

Mike wrote:[quote="andygolfer]

i some time wonder (for the reasons given above) if 3 is too many votes and maybe reduce it to 2 - shall we run a poll on it?
Yeah - why not? :thumb:[/quote][/quote]

I think the time has come to split this topic out and try to get a consenus , followed by a poll. i'll have a go at splitting it - wish me luck
Andygolfer (or at least I was once), now just plane crazy

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please support our photo competitions by entering and/or voting!
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co-owner of UK Light Aviation Enthusiasts google group https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uklae
and Stansted Aviation Enthusiasts google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stnae

my photos on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125470545@N07/

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andygolfer
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SPOTM/POTM voting polls discussion topic

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:55 am

I've split this into a separate topic for discussion on the voting polls as it was in the May SPOTM poll and is about the polls more generally. There have been questions about how we run the polls for POTM & SPOTM from time to time and most recently in the May SPOTM so I have started a new topic on the subject and I will move the relevant posts from that topic into here to start it off.

The main subjects under discussion are the voting system - previously we used to ask people to e-mail their choices and more recently we have moved to the poll system which allows a secret vote and there have been questions as to whether we can monitor to ensure the honesty policy of not voting for oneself can be monitored and secondly who do people not use all 3 votes available?

first of all we dont feel we can change from the voting system as it stands (private poll - don't like the term secret but you know what I mean) and there is no apparent way of monitoring who votes for what so we will ahve to continue to rely on your honesty. I will say at this point there is nothing to suggest that the honesty policy is being abused but the question of monitoring has been raised so we needed to reply to it.

secondly we do realise that several of you dont always use all 3 votes available.
Are you happy to tell us why, and also do you think that 3 votes is too many (or too few even). If so would you like the number of votes to be reduced to either 1 or 2. If we get enough indication that you feel a change is desirable we will run a short poll on it and maybe change things for the june competitions - over to you

AND can we have some feedback please
Andygolfer (or at least I was once), now just plane crazy

Image
please support our photo competitions by entering and/or voting!
Proud winner of 2019 Air-Britain photo competition!

co-owner of UK Light Aviation Enthusiasts google group https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/uklae
and Stansted Aviation Enthusiasts google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stnae

my photos on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125470545@N07/

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PorkScratching
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Re: Voting polls discussion topic

Post by PorkScratching » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:55 am

I think 3 is votes is ideal for the number of entries each competition seems to be attracting.

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BringBackEGDG
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by BringBackEGDG » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:49 pm

My personal preference would be to have a guest judge for each competition, but I guess that is easier said than done.

If you wish to continue with the present system then 3 votes without the honesty policy ( 1 for me plus I vote for 2 others )
But of course there is always the tactical vote ( 1 for me plus 2 others that I feel will not win ). Sorry but I feel the present voting system is full of loop holes.

Steve

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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:21 pm

BringBackEGDG wrote: If you wish to continue with the present system then 3 votes without the honesty policy ( 1 for me plus I vote for 2 others )
Steve
That's quite an innovative way of looking at and not without it's merits. I think they call it 'thinking outside the box'
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please support our photo competitions by entering and/or voting!
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and Stansted Aviation Enthusiasts google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stnae

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Mike
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by Mike » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:42 pm

andygolfer wrote:
BringBackEGDG wrote: If you wish to continue with the present system then 3 votes without the honesty policy ( 1 for me plus I vote for 2 others )
Steve
That's quite an innovative way of looking at and not without it's merits. I think they call it 'thinking outside the box'
Hmmm........but if you do away with the "honesty policy" then there's nothing stopping someone from voting for their own shot and not using their other two votes.
Mind you, there's nothing stopping that at present, is there?
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by flour power » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:20 pm

I'm happy to come out of the closet as a one vote voter.

I can't think of another vote where I'm asked to cast three, equal value, votes (unless there were more than one office available -a union executive, for example). I vote for my favourite image. If there were two equally strong candidates, then I would cast two votes. As I see it, I am free to cast up to three votes. If I choose not to, then that's up to me; or have I missed the point?

With all the loopholes in the current system, I really think that this should be the last of your concerns. Did you realise, for example, that the blind system, can be circumvented by logging out, opening the poll revealing the votes cast thus far, and then logging in and voting tactically for struggling chums or checking whether the image you will vote for will overtake you if you vote for it?

And that's beside the issue of voting for ones self - although I'm sure that no one on here would do that....

I would propose one member, one vote or simply accept that some might not want to exercise three votes every month.

One more thing, could we please ressurect the POTM Winner tag under our board user name, applied retrospectively?

Mike
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by Mike » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:17 pm

Interesting post there, Mike - thanks a lot for taking the time to type it. :thumb:

There's another problem that you guys may not be aware of and that is members with 2 (or more) accounts, they can vote for themselves and then log out, then log in with their other user name (using their other email address) and then vote for themselves again.

But why bother going to all that effort - it's only a bit of fun after all !

As for the POTM winner tags, then I can openly blame an ex. member of Admin for removing all the previous tags - a decision that he took by himself and one that infuriated me because it was my idea to start with and it was me that added the tag every month. :grr:

I'll go back through all the previous competitions and add them again, I do apologise. :)
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by flour power » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:33 pm

Thanks Mike. My pleasure, I hope its helped.

It seems to me that the best way to ensure propriety is to go back to e mail voting - although it does lose the element of being able to check the up to date 'running'. As a matter of interest, how did the number of e mail votes stack up against the number of current-method voters?

I guess that how you eventually go all depends on whether there is a perceived / actual problem. And the scale of same.

Thanks for reinstating the tags. My mentioning it, of course, has nothing to do with the blank space below my user name. :whistle: :halo: :whistle:


Mike
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My celebration of mediocre photography: http://www.flickr.com/photos/flour_power_99/

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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by Uncle Fester » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:48 pm

how did the email voting work please?

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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by andygolfer » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:56 am

Uncle Fester wrote:how didthe email votingg work please
badly , it was poorly supported with far fewer votes and then some poor moderator/admin had to collate the votes. The voting poll is far more popular and easier for most to use.

If you mean how did it operate then there is a clue in the word 'e-mailing'. Have a look through the old photo competitions to around January 2013 which was the last timeit was used and there in an explanation in the rules and after the last entry, here's an easy to follow link: http://www.civilianaviation.co.uk/forum ... 10&t=14292
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please support our photo competitions by entering and/or voting!
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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by Jaymer15 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:03 pm

One idea for the number votes each person has each month could change with the amount of entrance. As the months with a small amount of photos, 3 votes seems to be a lot.

For example if you have only 5 or less photos entered for that month 1 vote. 5-10 photos 2 votes and more than 10 photos 3 votes.

I do like the current system of voting and try to vote every month. I can see how emailing would be a pain. I also like to think that members who enter can be trusted not to vote for them self. I only wish my photos where good enough to enter.

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Re: POTM / SPOTM voting discussion topic

Post by andygolfer » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:15 am

I had a thought about this polling malarkey and 3 equal votes with no way of doing a 1st, 2nd and 3rd preference which some members dont like. I've discussed it with the other moderators and they agreed that I should offer it up as an idea and now that this month's vote is closed I thought I would throw it open for ideas

It's slightly complicated but I'm happy to give it a trial for one month on SPOTM if you wish (a bit of extra work for me but I can probably cope). Instead of one poll I will run 3 with ONE vote on each , One poll for first preference (each vote worth 3 points) one poll for second with each vote worth 2 points and a third poll for third preference with each vote worth 1 point, all I then have to do is add them up.

the biggest downside I can see is that somebody might only vote for themselves as first choice and no 2nd or 3rd thus giving a greater advantage that at present if they do decide to 'cheat' although there is no evidence of cheating and I hope the honesty policy is being followed.

would you like me to give it a try for one month to see how it works?
Andygolfer (or at least I was once), now just plane crazy

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please support our photo competitions by entering and/or voting!
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and Stansted Aviation Enthusiasts google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/stnae

my photos on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125470545@N07/

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